The presidential candidate of the Action Democratic Party (ADP) in the2023 general elections, Alhaji Sani Yusuf Yabagi, has said that the Independent National Electoral Commission’s (INEC) vulnerability for manipulation by the party in power is forcing governors and other politicians to defect to the All Progressives Congress (APC).

In an interview with VINCENT KALU, the Jakardan of Nupe, noted that even though the government is getting so much money, but insecurity and poverty are becoming more endemic.

Defection to the APC is trending, when is your own party collapsing into the ruling party, or when are you defecting with your people?

Your question is not misplaced because that is what is trending now. Perhaps, you have to look at the background of the people who are defecting or merging with the ruling party. Everybody cannot be totally insensitive to the situation in the country and the need to have a credible alternative to what is happening.

We as a party, the Action Democratic Party (ADP) cannot be swayed by the make-believe things, which are purely political and pushing majority of people going to APC, the ruling party.

We are not thinking about it. There’s no way we will fit into that definition because Nigeria does not start and stop with the APC.

The APC is just a passing phase in Nigeria’s political development because we know the background to what is making people against their inner wishes to join APC.

One of the factors is that elections in Nigeria are not something that you can depend on for your political fortunes because they are not conducted in a manner that will give one that confidence.

In other words, the results are often than not tampered with impunity because of the underlying conditions in the grand norm itself, which is the constitution.

The constitution gives one of the participants in the election the right to choose the officiating team. It’s like a match where you are going to play against another side and that side is the one appointing the referee, lines men and all the officiating team of the match.

So, from the beginning you have lost because so many things would be done against you and you will not have anybody to go to. The point I’m making is the fact that the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) officials are appointed by the president, who is more often than not a participant in the election or his party is a participant in the election, and you cannot have a free and fair election under the circumstance.

So, until we change that particular aspect of our law we can’t get it right.

Secondly, the constitution did not stop at or we did not stop at making the institution itself vulnerable for manipulation by the party in power, we also make the financing of INEC vulnerable also. It is denied the autonomy that is in the constitution. You find the situation where INEC, instead of them to submit their budget to the National Assembly as prescribed in the constitution because they have first-line charge which is from the consolidated revenue fund that is controlled by National Assembly. What is happening today is that INEC submits their budget to the Minister of Finance, who will look at it and then submit it to the president, who again tinkers with it, and then releases the money to INEC anytime he wishes, which is completely against what the constitution says.

The institution itself is under the whims and caprices of Mr. President.

The funding of that institution again is under his control to the extent that they have violated that aspect and it is now the government in power that is building the office; the headquarters of INEC. In that kind of environment how do you expect free and fair elections to take place?

Some of these politicians moving from their parties to the party in power are for them to be on the right side of the law because the law says that APC is the one that is going to appoint the officials of INEC; the ruling party is the one that is going to fund INEC operations. So, as an opponent, where are you? The opposition has no chance in an election, and all of us are seeing it.

So, these are the underlying conditions making people against their wishes, to abandon their parties and then go and join the ruling party because in your opposition party, everything is stuck against you by the rules that govern the elections and the democracy itself.

So, until we wake up, and do the right thing, we will not have free and fair elections where when you win, your votes will be given to you.

You said the reason for the gale of defections to the APC from other parties is because the party in power appoints the INEC chairman and so on. But in 2015, even the party in power, the PDP, lost the election to the APC. How can you reconcile this against your position?

The situations are different. In Nigerian elections like you know, there are primordial sentiments that are very influential on how we elect our rulers from governors to presidents, etc. What are these primordial sentiments? Regionalism is part of it, religion is part of it too, and you have a rotation. In 2015, what happened is that the president in power at that time was attempting to go for a third term, and he was also attempting to usurp the opportunity of the other zone. That’s what worked against him. It’s not the issue of INEC at that point in time because in Nigeria unless you are from a particular zone at a particular time, no matter how much money you have, no matter how much power you think you have, you cannot make it. We have seen it happen in so many instances.

One of the reasons the third term attempt by former President Obasanjo failed is because the north saw it as a way of denying them their opportunity, and that’s why they shut it down. The reason Jonathan failed is because the north saw it as an attempt to usurp their opportunity at that point in time. If you have the power of incumbency, you can use it to your advantage, but not when it is not your turn in this particular situation we are talking about now.

President Bola Tinubu has the zoning arrangement to his favour and he also has the power of incumbency in his favour. So, he has the two things that you need to make it.

Everybody knows that 2027 is coming and all of us are going to participate, but the chances of any other person winning are very slim. I’m not in any way saying it’s impossible, but it’s very slim because of these factors which I’ve mentioned that are not in favour of any other zone than the south. The south again is in power, so, they have power of incumbency.

Are you saying that the 2027 election is already decided in favour of the ruling party?

If you look at the influence of the primordial sentiments in our politics, you may safely say so; if you look at the influence of those sentiments, and also the power of incumbency.

So, based on your position, it is an exercise in futility for other parties or candidates struggling for 2027?

It’s politics now and anything can happen in a political situation because nothing is cast in stone, but the fact is that we have a history in this country and we know how influential these sentiments are. I don’t know how you are going to convince a southerner in the 2027 elections to vote for a northern candidate; I don’t know what you are going to tell them. They will tell you that the north had eight years with Buhari. So, why can’t we be patient and allow the south to have their own eight years too, as allowed in the constitution if you win the election. This is why it will become difficult for you to garner the bulk of the votes from the south for a northern candidate in this coming presidential election.

At what point will this country drop these primordial sentiments in choosing their leaders, and choose competence, integrity and character, irrespective of where the person is coming from? Some people say it is one of the drawbacks impeding the development of this Nigeria.

Whoever has said that isn’t wrong. But there are two militating factors against Nigeria electing its president on merit. The first is ignorance, which is predominant in Nigeria. The bulk of the electorate is ignorant of some of these issues we are talking about.

The second is poverty. People are so poor that they are ready to do anything you want them to do, especially when it comes to elections, and when they know that they may not have another opportunity to get from the person.

So, they believe that if they vote for somebody for his competence, by the time the man gets to the office, he may not remember them. Why? It is because of corruption. These two factors are militating against Nigeria from being a country that will be free of influence of these primordial sentiments.

Until we get to the point where our economy becomes private-sector driven, we will continue to have these sentiments ruling our democracy, elections and things like that, because almost everything is decided by the government.

Who gets what in this country in terms of the economy, political offices; everything is in the hands of government. If you are a businessman, if government is not patronizing you, your guess is as good as mine, as that business will fail.

So, until we are able to reach a state where our economy is private sector driven, and our government has little or no influence in what accrues to you as an individual; until we are able to reach a state where our economy is private sector driven, we may not achieve that.

It’s the party that sponsors candidate for an election. Why is it difficult to enforce an elected official that defects to another party to lose his or her seat?

It is the same lacuna in the Constitution, and some of our own also don’t have regard for the rule of law. Yes, you may have it in the law, but who is going to enforce it?

For instance, if a member of the National Assembly defects from his party, the Speaker of the House or the Senate President is the one that should declare that seat vacant, but he would not. In fact, he would welcome the man to the party, and they will celebrate, under the pretence that there is a division in that party, when in most cases there is no division, it’s just politics.

We are yet to have a suitable constitution or the laws that will help to develop the kind of democratic environment that will suit Nigeria in terms of having the country to develop at a faster rate and achieve its promise of greatness.

Every ingredient that is required for a country to be great is in Nigeria. You know, what is eluding us is the issue of leadership. The leadership question is what we are battling with, and that also is rooted in our makeup -these primordial sentiments that are stronger than even the issue of Nigeria as a corporate entity itself. People feel more comfortable with their comfort zone, which is this sentiment that I’m talking about. This is a kind of predicament that we have as a country. But I know with time, we will overcome some of these things.

Nigerians are celebrating that the three tiers of government are getting so much money now – the centre, the state, and the local governments, yet people are agonizing over the hunger and hardship in the country. What is your take on this issue?

We are coming from a situation where like Mr. President said at his swearing in at the Eagle Square, that the wealth of this country has been siphoned by very few in the country through subsidies – fuel subsidy and the naira subsidy. What the president had been able to do successfully as can be seen now is that he has replaced those few non-state actors with few state actors who are not anything different in terms of their behaviours; in terms of the ways they are also squandering the wealth of the country.

They are not any better than those few non-state actors who are stealing our wealth, otherwise the situation would have changed to the extent that you would have seen welfare improvement, security improvement and job creation and things like that for the people. But what are we seeing, nothing really.

It’s just that the problem has changed names. It is just the same few under an obscure arrangement stealing the same money, otherwise, why is insecurity becoming more and more endemic, poverty becoming more and more endemic? People are becoming more and more pauperized? All the things that were happening before when Naira and the fuel subsidies were being done by the government have just been more endemic now.

They have become more in terms of the adverse effects it’s having on the people.

So what is it? The issue of corruption has to be addressed because the leakages are too much. You have the EFCC running all over the place, and I don’t know how many people, politically exposed individuals that they have brought to book, other than to just do a kind of media trial and things like that.

These are the crux of the matter, which is that corruption that is still endemic has to be fought headlong so that now that money is finding its way into governments, it will be applied for the people. But that’s yet to happen, it’s not trickling down yet.

Are you not concerned that in spite of this so much money coming to the government, the debt is burgeoning every day?

The government has an ambitious plan to turn things around, but the economic structure is very weak. When you want to implement a highly geared capitalist system under a very weak economic environment, where the majority of the people are poor, this is what you get.

And then when there’s indiscipline also. The money we are making is not finding its way to the right people; to the masses in particular. This is why the lots of money you are making are still going into the private pockets; into the pockets of the governors, ministers and government officials.

So, until you can stop that, and until you have the political will to check that, you will continue to have the problems multiplying. That’s what is happening.

That’s why we are borrowing, and borrowing to do what – to consume, and not for production, because all the talks about the infrastructure that they say they’re building, the talks about the economic programmes are not in any way meeting 10 per cent of the problems that they have created, in terms of the economic hardship that people are going through. It has failed to address 10 per cent of the economic hardship that has been created.

And you are telling people to be patient; to be patient for how long? This is why the government needs to go back to the drawing board and see how they will come up with social intervention programmes that will address directly the issue of poverty, not lofty ideas or things that will take so many years to mature, while people are dying today.

So there’s a need for government to go back to the drawing board and look at how they come up with direct social intervention that will lessen the hardship on the average citizen.

This is where there is this missing link between the two and that’s why you are borrowing and borrowing. Okay, if we are borrowing and the money is being invested into the economy and the economy is performing, why did the World Bank remove us from the fifth fastest growing economies in Africa? It’s because we are not meeting the targets.

More so, you embark on a very retrogressive idea of tax and taxation. You are taxing and taxing the poor. Taxation does not boost the economy, it doesn’t add to the growth of the economy; it chases away investors.

The money that would have accrued to a private sector to invest is now in the hands of the public sector that is corrupt. You are amassing so much wealth, so much money from the economy and giving it to corrupt thieves. If you have not taken away money from the private sector, maybe, they would have been able to invest that money in building factories, investing more in production, which create more employment and by so doing the purchasing power of the people will increase, economic activities will go up leading to an increase in the GDP.

Even the tax reforms that they are bringing cannot boost our economy, it will kill the economy, and it will reduce our GDP growth. It’s a simple logic, you take the money away from the private sector that would have used it efficiently and give it to a public sector that will steal it and deny the economy the investments.

Tinubu has said the worst is over for the country, as the reforms he has put in place have started yielding fruits and things have changed for better for Nigerians. What do you say to this?

Which area? But, you are a Nigerian, is your life better? You are also living in this country now. Look at yourself, is your life better? Is it? We shouldn’t lie to each other. The moment you lie to yourselves that’s the fastest way to failure. But, if you are factual with yourself, then you will now come up with solutions to address the problem.

He’s not the one to tell us that; it’s the Nigerians that should tell him. It is people like you who will tell him that things are getting better. (The Sun)