Former governor of Jigawa State, Sule Lamido, few weeks ago, filed a suit against his party, the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP). In this interview, he offered insight on why he took the drastic legal step.

Lamido, who spoke with Sunday Sun in his Kano office about the gale of defections by PDP governors exiting from the party to the APC, insisted that defecting with the mandate and fortunes of one party to another is an act of grave dishonour. He also laughed off his purported suspension from the party by Wabara, saying that Wabara, whom he described as an embarrassment, cannot suspend or sack a patriarch of the party like himself.

What is your thought on what is happening in the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) of late? I am talking of the internal crisis, the gale of defections by PDP governors and where all of these negatives would lead the party to.

Let me say that anybody who is about 45 years old can clearly recollect how Nigeria was in 1992 and what we did between 1997 and 1998. The mood in the country at the time – a country that was then disunited, there was nothing like mutual respect for one another, the component tribes or nationalities within the country were not united on any issue. There was no mutual trust; I have been saying that any country which lacks the internal cohesion of trust cannot survive because trust gives the people confidence to believe in something. When you believe in something, then you have trust, which could lead to stability and from there you can face human development. This was what was lacking after the June 12th annulment. I am saying so that you will get a clear picture of the background in which I am coming from. And so, the formation of PDP took into account some vital issues about how a country should be; the character of a country. A country should have its own character, where there is mutual respect, integrity, honour, and where the people believe in themselves as well as in their country, where there is human empathy, the desire to work for each other and for our country, and where there is a common objective for the country. This was what was lacking before the PDP came into the focus. And so if you now look at what we went through and then what we are going through at the moment, if you are like me, at my age, you will feel very, very sad because the very thing we struggled for, we worked for and made sacrifices for is somehow being washed away or is somehow being appropriated by some characters who have no character. It is very, very sad. So for now this country needs to rejig its history, and ask this question: what do we want as a nation? One, there is so much division in the country. Two, there is also loss of hope in service and in government. Three, there is so much poverty. For now, we should go beyond the politics of elections, the politics of “I want to be this or I want to be that’, the politics of personal interest …

What exactly do you think are the problems of the PDP at the moment and how can they be solved?

With all due respect, how many of us today know what PDP was in 1997 at formation? In 1997-98, you had the G-9, G-19; there was the Eastern Mandate headed by Alex Ekwueme and there was Afenifere led by Bola Ige. So, there were so many components, which came into being and which met in the House of Jerry Gana. These components sat down and debated sincerely and asked, ‘what do we do to salvage the country?’ And I think that later Bola Ige and others pulled out because they felt that there were some people whom they felt that they were not comfortable with. But then they were part of the formation. And we made a decision based on fairness and justice, based on democracy. That was what we did – even though Afenifere later pulled out. But the formation of this bigger dream and hope for Nigeria, they were part of it. This bigger dream conceived by thinkers – people who were very, very strategic and they were part of it.

Relating this to the present situation in the party, has the PDP lived up to the kind of expectations that heralded its inception? Has it been able to live up to the vision of its founding members of the party?

Unfortunately, most of those who were very, very active in the 1997/98 are now in their late 70s and 80s. Most of them have now either retired or have taken a passive role. I don’t think that there is anybody in Nigeria of my age who is still very active – very few. It looks like I am the only person. That is why I am full of circumspection. This is because the environment – when I speak, how many people understand me? How many people will be able to reconnect with the past and then think about the future? And the whole thing now seems like I am talking about myself, defending myself and it is very, very sad!

You aspired to become the chairman of the PDP, but you didn’t get the support of some of your colleagues. What exactly happened and how did you take it?

The desire or the aspiration for me to run was not exactly like I just wanted to run or go for it. It was based on some elders looking at what was happening in the country and the political environment, who felt that PDP happened to be the only political party with the network, vision and capacity to save Nigeria. Therefore, they felt that they should look for somebody whom they thought could help find the solution, and I was approached. With all modesty, I am not saying that I am the best person. But somehow people felt that being there early and way back, and having known the entire history of the party, I would be able to rally round people who would be able to partake in these efforts, that I would be able to restore the old glory of the PDP. I have never in my life vied for any office voluntarily. Right from the time I ran for the House of Representatives in 1979, it was not my wish to run for that office into the House of Representatives. It was the people who forced me to run. Even in my governorship. In 1992, when my people wanted me to run, they came here and said that I should run. To me it is not a personal thing. I am simply volunteering to run because I think that I can serve. But when the people I want to serve don’t want me, there is no big deal. And I said that I will never vie for anything again. It was OBJ who forced me to run as governor in 2007. I didn’t want to. So, whatever I have been doing in life, it is something which is induced from outside, it was a consideration of some concerns. So, my desire to run is not something personal….

What about the people who opposed your ambition to run the party? What exactly happened?

I feel terribly anguished discussing this issue. It is agonizing. But then again, me as brother, an elder, father in the PDP and a member of the PDP family, some people said they don’t want me. Why? Because they said that I have got a very strong personality and therefore, I cannot be manipulated. Within a family, what is called manipulation? Within a family, there is nothing like a strong character or a strong personality because it is a single family working for a common goal towards a common objective. It is not personal. Anybody in the family Is equal. Anybody within the family should be protected. But when you say within the family, you have got a secret agenda, a political desire and therefore, it has become your own political office and you are going to manipulate it, it is wrong. Those who felt that I should not run for the position are those who felt that they could not control me. Why should you attempt to control a legacy? Why should you manipulate a legacy of service and unity within Nigeria? In 1997, PDP saved Nigeria, PDP got Nigeria saved, PDP worked for Nigeria and got Nigeria reunited. So with this kind of heritage, how do you want to manipulate this background?

A very important aspect of this question is in terms of the constitution and the laws of the party. Those opposed to your emergence, were they working within the constitution?

You see, when you are blinded by ephemeral interests, I repeat, when you are blinded by ephemeral interests , you foreclose all reasoning. And more so, when you see yourself so powerful because of the office you hold, you also foreclose all reasoning. And you see these characters, wherever they are, in any political party – wherever you find them, their visibility, their aura, their authority is from the office and not as a result of their persons. Now when you begin to confuse your office with the person and you think that the whole aura, the whole thing as being yours, then there is a big problem. Then you miss what is called leadership. It is these characters who think that because of the office they hold, because of the aura of the office they hold, they think that everybody must be controlled and everybody must be subordinated. And it does not work that way!

What is your take about the party’s Ibadan convention or whatever that happened there? Do you think the outcome will subsist? Do you think it is just a jamboree like some people have argued?

The entire saga Is linked to my court case. When I was denied the form, I went to the party’s office which is the place you can get the form and the place was locked up and I said that if I don’t get the party’s form, I would go to court. I made that very, very clear. And I was denied that form and I went to court, made my case. And so, the issue is beyond the PDP’s constitution. It is an issue about my right as a Nigerian citizen in a political party with the right to aspire to any office. Even though I didn’t want, but I was forced to go to court. Legally speaking, the Ibadan Convention is null and void. Even INEC acknowledges this. They called the factions, both the Bala faction and the Wike faction – they told them that either they get themselves reconciled or INEC will simply wait for the appeal at the court. And the appeal in court is purely on my own case and the appeal now in court is very, very important in determining the fate of the PDP – the appeal is over the case which said don’t hold the convention except you sell the form to Sule Lamido and give him time to go and campaign so that he will be able to run. And until this appeal is cleared and as far as INEC is concerned, they don’t have anybody called PDP at the national level.

What if you are approached for out of court settlement, do you see a light of hope for reconciliation?

Out of my own personal concern, I feel so bad that I, Sule Lamido, will take my party to court, the very party I so much love, the very party I so much cherish and the very party I have made so much sacrifices for and the very party which has honoured me with various positions. I have been a minister, governor and now a leader of the party, a senior member of the party and a life member of the BOT. Now I had to take the party to court. To me, it is the most painful thing. But then, what can I do? What can I do when real political immigrants have taken over the party? Immigrants, who have no idea about the values of the party or the sacrifices made by the early leaders who formed the party. They are only there because of the office they occupy and therefore they want to control the party. So I went to court. And I want you to note that I did not just go to court. I made so many efforts, I made so many efforts. I met some of our leaders, I called Bode George. Anybody you can think of. I went to Saraki because he is the chairman of the reconciliatory committee and I made efforts so that we can come together and talk. To me, my chairmanship is not sacrosanct. It is not at all. In fact, even if they call me to contest for the office again, I will not run because I have made my point that nobody can ban or deny that right. But apart from that I have no interest in running again.

Recently, you were supposed to have been suspended by the Wabara faction of the party. How did you take the news and again what is the merit of the action?

(Laughs) I heard you said a faction of the party. It is a faction because there are two Boards of Trustees (BoT). Well, number one, I am a lifetime member of the BoT and therefore nobody can sack me. Number two, and with all sense of humility, there is no 77-year-old person in the party. All those in the environment are my younger brothers in age. Those of my age – 77 years and thereabout, are not very active like me. So it means that within the PDP family I am the most active person within my age bracket. Therefore, I can’t imagine a member of the family trying to drive away their patriarch. Because this their patriarch formed the history of the party and so if they sack him what are they going to inherit? Nothing! Number two. I feel highly embarrassed for Wabara. I hold the office in high esteem, but I have no respect for his person. This is the same Wabara that went to a function with his state governor who was of the Labour Party and endorsed him for a second term. Remember! Is there any bigger sabotage, any bigger betrayal of the party than this? And thankfully, the members of his own ward sacked him. As far as his ward was concerned, he had committed political treason. He betrayed the party and was sacked from the party because he endorsed an opponent. So in which capacity is he talking to me? So, I feel embarrassed for him and that was why I said I have no respect for him but I have respect for the office he held. That is why I said that he is a shell, he is politically empty.

What would you say about the FCT minister, Nyesom Wike?

I made the point earlier on, about six months ago. I said that I will boycott all the meetings of PDP, either NEC meeting or that of BOT until and unless Wike and Ortom who professed to vote for Tinubu in 2027 are expelled from the party. I made that very, very clear. I told Wabara this. I told him and sent him a clip where Orton and Wike were saying that they were going to work for Tinubu. So I have made that point that unless Wike and others are expelled I will not attend the meeting again. Have they? They have not been expelled and so I stayed away. What I am saying is this, over time Wike became important because he was also a leader of the governors at one time or the other. Bala, Makinde, all of them. They were in league, they were hands in glove, they were friends and they were partners towards their own interests. And as they moved along, interests began to vary. And when their interests began to vary, they began to fall apart. But then all of them are part of the crisis. Ortom and G-5 governors were our problem two years ago. After the elections, Fintiri, Bala and Makinde were on the same phase. They are friends and they are working together. And they became the monsters of the party. The party, which has history, legacy and tradition, was taken over by this generation of young governors and most of them are alien in PDP. They are all aliens. They have no idea what is PDP. I respect them and their offices, but then they have not been fair to the party in terms of their personal conduct. Beyond being a governor, there is what is called duty and responsibility to the party or its interests. And they wrecked the party, and there is no doubt about that. Five of them played roles. But they have fallen apart. Both Wike and Bala have been seeing me as one of their own problems. But to me, it is not about being against anybody, I am simply there for the party. I am not against any governor. I am simply there for the party, a party which has got its own rules and regulations, tradition and norms of doing things right.

There has been a gale of PDP governors defecting to the APC. What is your thought on this development?

I think the issue is not about joining Tinubu. It is about where their interests will be protected. They look at the PDP that made them what they are, honoured them as governors, and wonder whether they can win election on the platform of PDP of today. Simply put they want to run for election and want a place they would be more secure and may likely come back. They feel that PDP cannot offer that to them. The ADC is not mature enough, not fully developed. So the only thing they see is APC. So it is not about Tinubu. Tinubu is the president so he is able to use his own office, his own power to able to make a huge empire out of APC. So those who are going to the APC are going there because it is the only place they think they can secure their ambition. Those in APGA, I mean Soludo, even those in Labour Party, like Alex Otti, are all for the Tinubu for the same reason. PDP governors are jumping because they are looking for their second term in office. A party that had so many governors now has only three governors Bala, Makinde and Fintiri. Dauda is there also negotiating because he is going to run for a second term. Even those who went to the convention and had their names on the convention programme have abandoned Turaki.

Is It right to say that this is the end of PDP? Do you think that PDP can come out of this?

If there is commitment by PDP leaders, if there is love for democracy in Nigeria , if there is love for what is called sacrifice and if there is belief in seeing Nigeria as a democracy, I think that PDP can be restored. But the question is this: is the commitment there? Is there a sense of service for democracy?

What are your thoughts about a one-party state? Because that is where we seem to be heading to- even if grudgingly.

I understand your fear because we are going there grudgingly. But we are Nigerians and it is up to us to make a choice. If we submit willingly, who do you blame? The APC is a political party like PDP. I should be able to defend my own and then cannibalize others. If I can poach in your own party, I will poach. Political parties are supposed to work for themselves. I will not go the mosque and pray for the delivery of APC. I will not go there. I will go to the mosque and pray for the demise of APC. The same way the APC will not go to the mosque or church and pray for the delivery of the PDP. It is up to the political parties to stand up and defend their fortune. If APC is poaching into PDP, why can’t PDP poach into APC? If you look at the PDP from 1998, look at the personalities in PDP, where are we? About 80 percent of the people in APC today were in the PDP. The only group in the APC, which is not PDP, is the CAN which is the Tinubu group. All others are PDP or APP.

What I am saying is that this people in government, they work hard to defend their party and to defend their own. But we in the PDP, we are a party of law and order and there are things that we would not do. APC is a party that has this rapacious appetite to destroy and conquer. And therefore it is up to the political party to say you cannot do it. But will they stand up?

What is the role of the courts, the judiciary? Why is this matter not being tested substantially in a court of law?

Look, in 1982, there was a crisis in my party, PRP, and there was a crisis in the GNPP. Late Goni of GNPP in Borno joined UPN. Late Governor Barde of Gongola State joined UPN. The PRP joined NPP, but then because we are a party of ideology with a puritanical philosophy, of character, we said that we won election on the platform of the PRP and if we are leaving the PRP, it is only normal for us to relinquish our position and return them back to the party. So, I have been saying that if people are leaving the party for which they were elected they should also relinquish their positions. If they are leaving the party which made them governors, they should relinquish the position back to the party and say okay I am leaving. They never did. When in 2013/14 we had problem with PDP, five PDP governors said that they were going to APC, but I said I was not going to anywhere. If I was part of them, then it means I will have to relinquish my governorship position. It is unfair for me to take PDPs power and fortune to my opponents and then fight my party. If you want us to join APC, let us resign. In 1983, there was this thing called honour. If you are changing your political party, then you relinquish your position and go and join them on your own. So, what we have today are people who have no character, who have no honour, who are willing to trade with the fortunes of the electorate, with the mandate given to them freely, which they appropriate as their own personal thing and trade with it in another political party.

Why are we not testing this before our courts?

The courts are not an island in Nigeria. They are part of the Nigerian components. The judges and people on the bench are also Nigerians. They are Nigerians. They are part of the Nigerian environment and if the majority of the people in one political party are not joining another political party, carrying with them the fortunes of that political party, what will the judge say. He is also a Nigerian and a part of the Nigeria environment. What will he do?

Your supporters in Jigawa State have been pushing for a decision from you. What is the way forward?

Today, there is so much anxiety in Nigeria and within the PDP family for those who want to run for elective offices – either as councillors, chairmen, House of Assembly, House of Representatives or even governors. It is their right, and something legitimate for them to aspire to run for these positions. If an incumbent governor will abandon the party and go somewhere, how do you expect someone who is in the village to respond? When someone like an incumbent governor can abandon the party platform, which produced him and made him a governor, naturally this thing has this huge effect on the other people who may want to run. In my case, I am not running for any political office. But then also there are people who believe in PDP and in our kind of political philosophy different from the main PDP because the component of our PDP in Jigawa is coming from the PRP background. Therefore, naturally they do not share the ephemeral interest of simply going into something because of adventure. There is something called conscience in what you do. And they said we want to run and I said that I am here to guide you. But then wait. When we come to the last resort, I will look for a platform in which you make an alliance. Because you are coming from a locality and politics is local, I will look for something that is local to form an alliance within the political parties in Jigawa State. So we come to alliance, and what do I give and what do I get in return? That is if the PDP fails to behave, if the PDP fails to put its house together or if the PDP fails to put its house in order. (The Sun)

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