Against the backdrop of last week’s school mass abductions with Niger Catholic school abductees exceeding Chibok at over 300, US-based international human rights lawyer, Emmanuel Ogebe, says Nigeria’s US delegation should return with immediate US assistance to rescue the kids. He also revealed the details of US covert operations in Nigeria and exposed location of terrorists during the joint AIT GLOBAL MATTERS interview on which he appeared with David Koranga. Below is the transcript.

AIT Anchor: Interesting times as Nigeria tries its best to get the support of the United States over President pronouncements to route jihadists killing.

Welcome to the program. I am Sola Jaimi. Yes. A 10-member delegation is in Washington DC Over this issue. The have been positives in the course of the interactions by the Nuhu Ribadu-led delegation with the American government officials following reports now. They met Secretary of Defence Peak, he said on Thursday night.

A US Congressional Committee held a hearing on the CPC designation and the killings of Christians as alleged by President Trump do not ASCE to by the Nigerian authorities.

To me, it feels like at times it's echoing an indifference around this, and somehow, we're going to develop our way out of it through developmental programs and this indifference Sounds like echoes. They are not only imposing on somebody's free speech, posing on their right to practice their own religion freely.

And when blasphemy laws are used as a mob or bandits, whatever you want to call them, to attack Christians, it shows me laws are a problem per se. Nigeria is a diverse, complex democracy. We must treat it as such, but what I'm most tired of is the delusional belief that if we'll just sit down around some sort of hypothetical drum circle, as I heard earlier, can resolve our differences.

People are being killed and it requires people to stand, use force to keep them and to make them safe. There was probably a discussion around, strategic. But the performance did not achieve the result intended, which is why this administration has made a decision that we need to see more performance in this area in terms of all Nigerians.

Okay.

We X-ray, all of these on today's edition of the program on a week in a week that has been quite dramatic; at least 25 school pupils kidnapped in Maga, Kebbi State, 25 church members taken captive on Tuesday after gunmen stormed a church service which was being live-streamed on your screen there.

Over 50 students taken from a school in Agua just by tourists. Another interesting scenario, what I would say, interesting times indeed in Nigeria. So, this is why, president Bola Ahmed Tinubu has had to cancel his trips to the G 20 summit, which host this weekend, the joiners book, and next week's African Union EU Summit in Rwanda, Angola.

Now let's unpack all of this with a focus on what is happening in Washington dc. I have two guests. One of them is a foreign arm policy and security expert, Dr. David Kanga. The other is a lawyer, international human rights lawyer, Mr. Emmanuel Ogebe. So, let's get into our conversation.

Thank you, sir for joining us on the program.

Emmanuel Ogebe, ESQ: Thank you very much.

Anchor: Okay, so David, let's start with you. you've been researching into the activities of terrorists in the Sahel region of west Africa. What are the key things that, have come to the fore in your research with regards to what's happening in Nigeria as we speak?

Dr David: It's clear to me that there's an upsurge in violence leading into this election year that we're having in Nigeria. It's also clear to me that they are coordinated internationally. So they are, moving resources around the Sahel. I think some of the instability in the Sahel is directly linked to their, increased capabilities and, it's gonna be a challenge for all the countries in the Sahel, however.

What we have seen is that there have been some countries that have performed better than others, namely Chad has performed better than Niger, Nigeria, Mali and Burkin Faso. So we have to look at what Chad has been doing, that is divergent from what we have been doing if we want to duplicate their success.

And Chad has certainly put a very, strong front up and they have, been successful in keeping at bay some of the things that we see happening in their territory.

Anchor: Okay, So, let me bring in Mr. Emmanuel Ogebe.

Mr. Ogebe, you're in Washington, DC, David is also in the US the outcome of the meeting with Pete Hegseth, which, who is the defence

US Defence Secretary. It's been muted, but ABC news reported that meeting eventually held.

What are the things you may have been hearing, you leave, you work in DC and this is a topical issue to Nigeria?

Emmanuel Ogebe, ESQ: yeah, I do know that yesterday in Congress, the administration was asked to confirm if it was true that AFRICOM had prepared three plans of attack against the terrorists in Nigeria.

And obviously the official who was questioned did not want to disclose such sensitive Information publicly, but I will tell you that in my recent interactions with people at the Pentagon, I was shocked to find out that they have a standing plan for intervention in every single country in the world.

Now we have to recognize that America is the greatest civilization that has ever existed on the planet. It was a shock to me. I knew as a matter of fact, that in the prelude to the 2015 election, my sources in the US Embassy, Abuja said that the evacuation plan of the embassy was already ready. Diplomats, American diplomats had their bags ready, that if the country was plunged into election violence like the 2011 post-election violence, they would be airlifted out of the country.

So, this is the level of preparedness that America has now.

Yesterday in the Congress, it was also pointed out that the Nigerian government's delegation was told by the chairman of the Africa subcommittee, he said, “we want you guys to succeed, and I don't understand why you are coming to downplay the severity of what is happening.”

What you need to understand is that Chairman Chris Smith and I have been to Nigeria on multiple Congressional delegations. He has been in human rights for over 40 years. There is no Nigerian senator or house member who can debate him on what is happening in Nigeria. This is a country that intelligence is key.

They have access to your phone calls, so when you show up and you want to mislead them, you are actually making a fool of yourself.

Anchor: Okay, so let's bring in Dr. Kanga.

My question for you is this, because we've been hearing that there are not a few who have their viewpoints about the composition of the committee, of the delegation from Nigeria, which is there in Washington DC.

Some even say, look, this is a huge diplomatic political thing, should the Nigerian government have a delegation, which is led by a national security advisor? And some say. Is there any problem with that? Dr. Kanga, your thoughts on this

Dr. David: No. There's no problem with heading the delegation with a national security advisor.

There is a problem with heading the delegation with that National Security Advisor because he's a failure and by US standards, He, would've been fired by now. So he doesn't even deserve to be the National Security Advisor yet alone leading any delegation on top of it. He's a Muslim, which does not speak well for the situation at hand.

I think the first lady. Of Nigeria would've been a better choice. and perhaps replacing the National Security advisor altogether with somebody else who, would be better suited for the job at this time. sending him to lead the delegation is pointless. They have no respect for him and his performance.

On top of the fact that we have this massive insecurity breakdown in the country, there was also a coup, which the US officials are very well aware of. Because they have intelligence on that. He's a failure and he's a joke.

The appointing authority for Mr. Nuhu does not think he's a failure. That's why the President has asked him to please lead this delegation, which has cabinet members to the US so that you can get things done for the Nigerian people. I, don't know what they got done. I don't, I'm shocked that they got a meeting with the, DOD or Department of War, sorry, secretary.

I'm shocked that they had audience with the joint chiefs of staff. So that's good, so I have no clue what they got done, but I do know this, that the NSA is not gonna be respected.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, who they also sent, is not going to be someone who they're not going to respect.

You want to send people who the receiving party is going to respect and that delegation isn't among it. And the way in which they were received, how they had a little tiny closed-door meeting wasn't on official records, no photo, no nothing. that was a mistake. I think the best course of action should have been to send the first lady who was a Christian.

She could have done the same meetings. The NSA could have been there. He's useless anyways, but he could have been there. then she could have also given a public statement, perhaps even hire a DC based public relations firm to go out there and schedule some media, outings for the first lady to speak.

The talking points that the government wants to get out there, in case the administration doesn't wanna speak to them or. take them very seriously. They can take their case to the public and then also showcase some of the successes because there have been very limited successes that the government has had that they are not being very public about.

The people think that essentially the government is doing nothing. and that is largely the case, but there are some things that they could at least thought that they're doing, so that could have been an opportunity for this particular delegation, they were quiet, they came and met with the congress.

They met behind closed doors and secretly with some of the defence establishment, and then they're out of the door. That was not a very successful outing if just from the optics alone, but I guess I don't know what happened behind the closed doors. So, from the optics, I would say that was pointless.

Anchor: Okay, Barrister, the issue around this delegation which is in the US as we speak, because you've gone deep into it. I had it as one of my talking points, because I also monitored the hours of, testimonies and the briefings by the US State Department officials, Mr. Mark G as well as, Mr. Pratt. I listened very well to them on Thursday when this committee sat.

Let's go into part of the things that have come to the fore, which is the CPC designation, that's an area where you have some strong points on being an international human rights lawyer.

And I listened to some members of that committee. Someone like, Sarah Jacobs. Sarah Jacobs told the chair of the committee, Mr. Smith, that look and all the members on the other side that we don't need to start talking about, getting troops somewhere or even rushing into another CPC slam on Nigeria, that they need to engage more diplomacy, though these things are happening.

Emmanuel Ogebe ESQ: First of all, let me just share some breaking news with you. This might save a life, I just got an early warning alert that, terrorists struck in northeast Nigeria yesterday, and they killed police officers and stole a police van. My contacts in Northeast say that the terrorists are currently in Buhari Village, Gada village, and Sukdu, Mattati, Buraburum villages.

Again, I repeat that terrorists are currently amassed in Buhari Village, Gada village, and Sukdu, Mattati, Buraburum villages in Yobe State. I hope that the intelligence officials are paying attention.

I will respond quickly now. I really want to quickly answer the past question you asked my colleagues.

Which is the delegation that is here, yeah. The National Security Advisor of Nigeria should be countering terrorism, not counting narratives. That is something that is supposed to be done by executives, not an aide to the President. He's not an aide to Nigeria, he's an aide to the president, an advisor to the president.

And so that was a mismatch. Secondly, we have the records where this same man as a private citizen said that they are killing Nigerians because the promises made to them were not fulfilled. That they are landless people and therefore they need land. He has already advocated on behalf of the terrorists who are killing us.

And then you send him to the US? They look at your file, they look at your history and they know who you are before you get on the plane. No, but prob that was in this week.

Anchor: Sorry. Let me just comment in there. There's no disputing the fact that, we all know that Mr. Nuhu, he's of Fulani extraction, but this is someone who has served Nigeria at various levels. A police officer served in different parts of this country has excellent records.

Now he's in political office, and he said he made it. That's the plan you're referring to. He said, "Probably my people of Fulani extraction, they need land and all of that." These were comments he made in the past, which if I look at it, they do not have any negative connotations?

Emmanuel Ogebe, ESQ: That's fundamentally the problem there.

The Fulanis do not have any indigenous land in Nigeria. They invaded Nigeria during the Jihad. They conquered some territories, and in other territories, they were welcomed as settlers. We now have a situation where foreign Fulanis are coming in. They're the ones looking for land.

The foreign ones that were invited by Nigerian Fulani politicians into the country, They're the ones occupying forests and killing Nigerians. And this has been admitted by the government. So let me make this clear. The success of their mission to Washington would be judged by the fact that if they were leaving, they got an announcement from the US government that “we're providing a team to come with you and help locate the children that were abducted.”

25 were abducted in Kebbi. We don't know whether they're Muslims or Christians. A hundred have been abducted at a Catholic school in Niger State. Oh, that means Christians. So again, there's a disproportionate impact on Christians. And then we had a third abduction this week apparently happened in Nassarawa.

Now, when the Chibok abductions occurred, President Obama deployed a multidisciplinary FBI team to Nigeria to go and assist. That's the kind of historic coordination and corporation the US and Nigeria have had militarily.

If this delegation is here to deal with terrorism and not deal with narratives, they would ask the US, “can you help us go and get these girls?”

I want to be very clear that their priority is misplaced. And if they leave North Washington without securing similar assistance to what Obama gave them many years ago, that is a missed opportunity.

Anchor: Okay. Dr. Kanga, you had the viewpoints of Mr. Barrister Ogebe on this particular issue. Do you see the delegation coming back empty handed?

Although we know even the main one of the two persons who raised the motion in the House of Representatives talking about Riley Moore. He has said, yes, you need to do certain things that we will try and ensure that the administration supports you. Do you see an empty bag coming back with the receiving team?

Dr David: Yes, yes. They didn't have a chance to begin with. The US administration does not respect this Nigeria team. There's nobody, I don't think anybody in that entire delegation, especially at the top, that they would respect. I think the Minister of State and Foreign Affairs; they're not going to respect their national security advisors.

They're not going to respect, and even working with Nigeria at an equal footing, shoulder to shoulder, they're not going to do that either because they don't really respect their counterparts on the other side. So right now, we are suffering. We can't ask someone to partner with us who doesn't believe that we are worthy partners.

That's where they are right now. They don't look at us as being worthy partners, and there's nothing that we've really done to demonstrate that we are credible partners. I think the best bet that the Nigerian State could do is to recruit and hire, defence contractors, perhaps even some of the same ones as the US.

This, in some of their operations to assist in their own effort. That would be a better first step than to reach out to the United States for assistance at this time, just given what is going on and given the general perception of the current officials in the US for their Nigerian counterparts.

There's no level; there's no respect. You can't partner with somebody who has no respect for you. You can't partner with somebody who thinks you're incompetent and doesn't see any, in fact, thinks that you come from a disposition. that is hostile to the very populations that are vulnerable, as my colleague mentioned.

So, there's really no room right now, I don't think of a tangible cooperation that we had in the past, what we had seen in the past. I don't think that's going to to be on the table now and that's even possible now. I think they're going to find their own partners, first, and then once credible steps are taken, perhaps then they US will consider forming, tangible partnerships with their now Nigeria capers. But as of now, I think even if they made the request now, it's going to fall on deaf ears. They're not going to, if they act, they're going to act on their own without the knowledge of the Nigerian counterparts.

They're going to inform them like seconds before they do it and do whatever they want to do, largely using their strike packages that they've already developed okay.

Anchor: But based . . . still give it, we have about six minutes to wrap up our conversation, but because for both of you who are in the US there, we like to get the perspective of how those who are in the us, Nigerians in the diaspora there, how they're reacting to all of this.

Mr. Ogebe, can you share with us, you lead a community in DC where you are of Nigerians, even those who you say had to fled this country, Nigeria, to be there in the USA? How are they reacting to all of this that is going on? They're in DC and how the Nigeria authorities are dealing with the issues that we've, been faced with the last couple of days.

Emmanuel Ogebe, ESQ: Okay. in the US over 80% of Nigerians here are of Southern extraction and unfortunately, a lot of Southern Nigerians have no clue the complexity or the severity and pervasiveness of the persecution and the killings in the north. Of course, naturally, there's a lot of confusion. People don't know whether this is the appropriate action to take for the US to militarily assist Nigeria in doing this.

Let me make something very clear. When Chibok happened 12 years ago, almost 12 years ago, the US deployed troops to help in the fight, to Chad and to Cameroon to help in the fight against Boko Haram and to rescue the girls. And we remember saying, “why did you not send them to Nigeria to work with Nigeria?”

And the answer was, “we do not trust the Nigerian army.” Why we would rather work with Chad and Cameroon, which are both French speaking countries, not Anglophone countries.

Anchor: Now why?

Emmanuel Ogebe, ESQ: I'll give you a quick illustration. I've already said in previous interviews that when the FBI team and special forces went to rescue the Chibok girls, their plan was to gas their camp and rescue them without shots fired.

By the time they got there, they Boko Haram were wearing masks. So, the US realized that the Nigerian military had leaked to Boko Haram, the operational tactics.

Now, another quick illustration. There was a general, a Nigerian general killed last week. He was communicating on WhatsApp, his location for rescue and Boko Haram got it and neutralized him.

If a Nigeria general was betrayed by his own people, why do you think the US will want to put their forces under their control? So, these are the real problems that make it difficult for the US to work closely with Nigeria, and that's why when they sent tactical teams to rescue Americans and Canadians Who were abducted in Kaduna that operation till this day has not been declassified.

And they came in, they killed the cap tors, rescued their people, and the Nigeria police claimed responsibility for the operation.

It wasn't till Trump came in and rescued an American who had been abducted in Niger and trafficked to Nigeria and the SEAL teams came in, killed six of them and extracted their man That Trump posted on, social media “That we just rescued our citizen, Phil Walton, from Nigeria.”

So, the US has overt and covert operations going on all the time. And that particular operation, like my colleague on the panel said, the US was already mid air. The Seal teams were in the air on the way to Nigeria before they informed Nigeria that, “Look, our aircraft is coming into your space for an operation, please do not shoot it down.” Okay? Sometimes, the US will rather ask forgiveness than permission. Okay? That is the way the covert operations occur.

Anchor: Okay. Dr. Kanga, in just a couple of seconds, will we see America, strike any part of this country with or without Nigeria's permission sovereignty questions here. It's highly probable. I would say there's more than 50% chance that it will, the current trajectory of things. There's been a lot, here's the thing, the longer it takes for them to do this, the, worse it's going to be. Because right now, they're being quite patient. I thought they would've struck by now. They have it. So, whatever they're planning and whatever they're going to do, it's going to be worse. The longer it takes 'em to do it, it's going. to be worse. So, I would say the Nigerian government should take this pause in this time just to get their security apparatus up and going.

And if they need assistance, they need to call their own contractors right now and not wait for assistance from any third-party countries, because when they come in, they're going to come in under their own command and control, and do it, as they see fit. Without your permission, without your knowledge or anything.

Anchor: David Koranga, International Global Affairs and Security Analyst reaching me there from the US and Barrister, Emmanuel Ogebe, thank you, sir, for coming to the program. Thank you. Thank you so much. And that's the program for today. We've looked at what is happening in Washington DC, the Nigerian delegation there, trying to ensure he gets the support of the US authorities, the Trump administration, to be precise, in tackling these issues.

I'm Sola Jaimi, have a lovely day.

Bye.

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