President of the Middle Belt Forum, MBF, Dr. Pogu Bitrus, has thrown his weight behind the Katsina State Governor, Dikko Radda, who recently alleged that some government officials and security personnel aid and abet banditry in Nigeria, thereby frustrating the government’s efforts to end the scourge.

In this interview culled from Daily Sun, he spoke about the war against bandits, kidnappers and insurgents by the current government, the corruption fight, the call to remove immunity clause from the constitution, the war against banditry and kidnapping, and the Lagos-Calabar coastal highway and the rising cost of cement among others.

Recently, the Katsina Governor, revealed that some government officials and security agents aid and abet banditry in Nigeria, do you agree with him?

I agree with him to some extent. There are some miscreants within the security and government agencies. Remember former President Goodluck Jonathan made mention of such a thing that some of them are in his government. There are people out there who are frustrating the efforts of mainstream security by being moles within the security agencies, whether the police or the military or whatever and passing information to bandits and terrorists and making life difficult. That is why it has become easy over time for bandits to ambush security men as they travel, meaning some informants within them inform the bandits about their movements. But we have drones and they are not costly things; why can’t the government provide such things for all our security outfits so that they can see what is ahead of them? Yes, there are conspirators within the government and the security agencies. That is why even the fight against insecurity is cumbersome and difficult because of these saboteurs within the security agencies. Gen TY Danjuma in 2018 said the security agents are colluding with bandits and terrorists and that is true. Something has to be done to weed out such elements among the security and those in government that are supporting them to ensure that insecurity persists.

Recently, about 50 Civil Society Organisations, CSOs, condemned the Federal Government’s approach to the fight against corruption, saying the government is only paying lip-service to it; do you think the government is actually fighting corruption?

The president didn’t say he was coming to fight corruption; that is not his priority. All he said was that he was coming to continue in Buhari’s footsteps. I think so far, he is doing better than Buhari since he came. When a government comes in and knows what its priorities are and pursues those priorities legitimately and properly, I think we should wait and see. There is corruption out there but the issue is that we have institutions on ground to handle corruption, no matter the government in power. We have adequate provisions in our laws to fight corruption, but unfortunately, the institutions are not working the way they are supposed to work. Our society has this inherent distortion such that if today somebody steals money and gives it to a monarch, he would be rewarded and even be crowned as a leader. So, this inherent attitude in us makes it difficult for somebody to change everything overnight. We need a revolution in that regard and we must encourage the president to do whatever he can to transform the economy and the security situation into one where commerce, trade and businesses will thrive. Gradually, if people are making it in business, they will not even be eyeing the government’s resources to steal. So, it is part of us but unfortunately, it is something we have to change through the change of attitude and behaviour. The government alone cannot do it, and already as I said, we have institutions and laws that can handle the job. It is up to these institutions to do their job and to do it well. We equally have to strengthen them to do their jobs well.

During the last Sallah celebration, the social media space was awash with pictures of bandits in their thousands celebrating in Zamfara State, shooting videos and posting for Nigerians and the world to see, without a whimper from any quarter. What do you have to say about that?

It just shows that the bandits are Muslims. It also shows that whatever they are doing is Islamic, whether or not we accept is immaterial but to them, what they are doing is Islamic. It also shows that up till now, no matter what we have been told that the military have done with regard to decimating them, there are still a lot of them out there who can cause havoc in this country.

Sentiments apart, we are people who believe in one Nigeria. We are not into one Nigeria but the reality is that there are people who don’t believe in one Nigeria. If they do, they will do what they are doing. We need to do what is necessary and we said we want this country to be restructured and that is the way forward.

A popular Nigeria cross-dresser, Okuneye Idris Olanrewaju, popularly known as Bobrisky is currently serving a six-month jail term for mutilating the Naira notes. Another popular Nigerian, Cuba Chief Priest is also standing trial for the same offence. Recently, there have been pictures of the Niger State Governor, Mohammed Umar Bago spraying money when he visited Kagara recently. President Bola Tinubu’s daughter was also recently caught in the same crime. But the EFCC has kept silent in the case of Bago and the president’s daughter. Why have they not received the same treatment as Bobrisky and Cubana Chief Priest or is Nigeria an animal kingdom where some animals are more equal than others?

There is no point making a mole out of anthill. The problem of this country is that we are not law abiding and the strong get a different law from the weak. Even the judgment about the election, you know what happened. The issue is that we should pray to restructure this country and get something that works for all of us rather than looking at why this person was jailed six months and the other person was not, yet all of them committed the same offence. That is not the issue.

Let’s encourage this president, because initially some of us didn’t believe in him, but going by what we are seeing, he has the guts to face some of the issues. Let us encourage him to be able to restructure this country so that we have a country where everybody will feel a sense of belonging and there will be fairness, equity and justice.

The International Rescue Committee (IRC) recently released a report that about 16 percent of Nigerians, particularly those in Sokoto and Zamfara states, would be thrown into extreme hunger between June and August this year. What are your thoughts about the report?

There is no need for any international body to give us a report, we know it is a reality because banditry has reached a stage where farmers can’t go to farm, and if they can’t go to farm, naturally there won’t be food to eat. And that time is a period when crops like maize are expected to mature and if there is no maize to complement or supplement whatever is there, there will be trouble and hunger will set in, unless the government rises up and does something to address the insecurity situation. So, their report is in order because it is in line with what is on ground.

Unfortunately, it will not be worse in Sokoto and Zamfara as the report stated because there are so many other areas where bandits do not allow farmers to go to farm. And in such situations, you will agree with me that there will be a devastating hunger unless the government takes a proactive action to address the issue of banditry, so that farmers can return to farm in peace.

The ongoing constitution amendment by the National Assembly has reawakened the call to scrap the immunity clause that protects the president, vice president, governors and their deputies from prosecution while in office. Do you think it is proper to scrap the immunity clause for these public officers from the constitution?

I think the immunity clause was wisely introduced in the constitution to protect people in such offices from unnecessary distractions. Nigerians have this attitude of ‘if it doesn’t go my way, it shouldn’t happen at all,’ and so, there will be too many lawsuits if the immunity clause is removed.

However, it can be modified. Yes, there could be immunity for the president, vice president, governors and their deputies but not when they are involved in criminal offences. Just because you are a governor, you go and terminate somebody’s life without recourse to the established legal system because you are protected by immunity; no, such a person has to be prosecuted, whether he is a governor or not. So, criminal cases should be visited on them but whether or not it should happen when they are in office is another issue. But, I think the immunity clause is good enough for us and it should be applied not recklessly by governors. So, scrapping it is not advisable at this time.

The Lagos-Calabar coastal highway has been generating controversy, with many Nigerians questioning its propriety at present, considering the country’s economic situation; what is your take?

Why the controversy; it is unnecessary. As far as we are concerned, development is development. The cost of fixing roads in Marshy areas is higher than up here where we don’t have such challenges, but I am not into the pricing. Anything that will bring about development is welcomed by us; we are Nigerians. China built something across the sea. It is just that we are a consuming economy rather than a producing economy. If we are productive and we have machinery and technology to do all these things; it is not what we should worry about. But, the problem is we are not yet a nation. We are divided by ethnicity and religion, otherwise we should move ahead and develop. If the project is going to bring about development, let it go on, but if it is going to retard the progress of Nigeria, let it be stopped. But I don’t think any project of that magnitude will be considered as retrogressive; I think it is moving us forward. But if the pricing is not right, let the government review and look at it but anything that is going to bring development is good for Nigeria.

There are arguments in some quarters that the project was not provided for in the budget; that the N15 trillion earmarked for the project is too much; and that there are so many roads in deplorable conditions in Nigeria that should have been considered to be fixed before embarking on new road projects of such magnitude. Do you share the same view?

Yes, there is a need to fix those roads that are in deplorable condition, but at the same time, we also need to embark on a project that will bring development to the country. The thing is that if the project is not in the budget, the presidency should seek additional provision so that the National Assembly will add it to the budget appropriately. Such projects don’t finish in one year anyway; it will be a continuous project. So, I don’t see any reason that cannot continue along with others that are taking place in other parts of the country. We are too sentimental in this country. If something is not in our area, it is not good. So, whatever we should do to alleviate the sufferings of the people in those areas is welcomed. Let other projects also be funded appropriately so that all roads will be accessible. But, the most important thing is that insecurity has to be addressed, otherwise even if there are roads and you are not secured, you will not like travelling by road.

Following the rising price of cement, the House of Reps Committee on Solid Mineral, Industry, Commerce and Special Duties recently gave the cement manufacturers 14 days ultimatum to appear before it to explain the reason behind the continuous increase. Do you think there will be any positive outcome from the meeting between the Committee and the cement manufacturers?

First, the cost of products is dependent on market forces. The clinker that these people use as raw materials is calcium carbonate which is broken down to calcium oxide that is the basic thing before cement. The primary raw product for the manufacture of cement is calcium carbonate and then they hit it to form what they call clinker. Now, we don’t know whether some of it is imported, but I know that the primary raw materials, including the clay and others are sourced locally. However, the energy which they use to break the carbonate to oxide costs money. And then, to transport the cement after production is high because the cost of diesel is very high now. Thank God some of Dangote’s trucks now use CNG but all these are imputed into the final cost of the products. So, what I will advise the House Committee to do is to look at these indices and make some calculations before they meet with the industry players. If they are extorting Nigerians unnecessarily, then something has to be done, but market forces determine all these things. If supply is higher than demand, prices will go down but if demand is higher than supply, prices will definitely go up. But, certainly, we can be happy in the sense that the raw materials, whether it is gypsum or the main thing which is calcium carbonate, are locally sourced. Even the gypsums applied are not adequate and they have to import, yes but it is just a little component of cement manufacturing and we just pray that other economic indices will be brought to bear in this regard, I the value of Naira is higher than it is now, $1/N1400, then cost of cement will certainly go down because these people make comparison with foreign force and also the value of our Naira vis-a-vis the other currencies which they use to bring inputs, whether it is machinery, gypsum or others. So, the bottom line is that the government should strengthen the Naira, and other things will also follow suit; the price will go down.

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